Three Skills Managers Need to Go from Good to Great

Kelsey Daly: Today, we are joined by Mulberry Talent Company founder, Lauren Francis, and Amy McGeachy, founder and HR consultant at McGeachy Consulting. McGeachy Consulting specializes in consulting for mid-sized businesses in the Oregon and Washington areas. Amy strongly believes that workplaces and the people in them can thrive while putting great work into the world.

To that end, her consulting practice focuses on the people side of HR and helps business leaders cultivate exceptional workplaces. So, without further ado, it’s my pleasure to introduce Amy McGeachy and Lauren Francis.

Lauren Francis: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Mulberry Conversations. We are so glad you’re here, and you joined us today. And we are very, very happy to have Amy with us. So, Amy, tell us about you. 

Amy McGeachy: Thank you so much for having me, and Kelsey, thanks for the intro. I am an HR consultant as Kelsey said to midsize businesses in Oregon and Washington, and I specialize in the people side.

So, I think about holistic HR for my clients, their HR strategy, and their engagement: their training and development of managers and employee relations. That’s part of the people side of HR as well, so I spend quite a lot of time talking with and coaching managers, vice presidents, and even CEOs.

That’s the HR consulting side of my business. On the flip side, I also do a decent amount of facilitating and training. One of the things I do is facilitate an eight-week manager training series for managers, anybody managing at least one person.

I am currently facilitating two series right now.  We have managers in there who have been managing just for a couple of months, all the way to managers who have been managing for over 20 years that, maybe haven’t been through manager training ever or need that refresh. So that’s really fun.

These are open to leaders and mid-sized businesses in our area. I say that, but my clients are mostly headquartered in Oregon and Washington, but they have employees in other locations. We’ve had people participate in the manager training series from literally all over the country, which is fun.

I also facilitate a workshop called the Feedback Workshop, which is super fun and complimentary. Anybody can participate. If you’re interested in learning how to deliver feedback, it’s a great opportunity for people to come together and learn in that way as well. 

Lauren Francis: Is that on your website, the Feedback Workshop? Is it something you offer occasionally or quarterly? 

Amy McGeachy: Yeah, that’s a great question. So I’m offering it occasionally. People can sign up for it directly on my website. 

Lauren Francis: Okay. I’ll be doing that. 

Amy McGeachy: I know everybody benefits, even myself. Studying back helps me to be better, but we all have opportunities to learn and grow for sure.

Lauren Francis: Yeah. So, when Amy and I were talking about what to talk about today because we have obviously many different areas that we could touch on, the manager training is a very big topic. And, the idea of what makes a good manager. Could you speak to that a little bit?

Amy McGeachy: I can. I’m actually going to answer that a little bit from the flip side. Sometimes we make these offhanded comments of, “Oh they’re a bad manager,” or “I’m a bad manager.” We very casually throw out that term. And I just want to reframe the comment. I feel like managers, we fit on a scale, right? From maybe bad to all the way to really out of this world exceptional. So there’s that very vast scale. And, I think that if you are intentional about wanting to be a good manager, which honestly if you’re here, I would think that you are already intentional about wanting to be a good manager, then you’re on your way.

Being good is about having a growth mindset and dedicating time to being a manager. My experience is that management can’t be an afterthought. I see this in lots of workplaces where somebody is managing a team, but they also have a lot of productivity goals themselves. So as they’re managing their workload, they fit in team management also.  I will tell you that the best managers that I see in workplaces dedicate a big chunk of time to being a manager and having time and conversations and being really proactive and intentional about managing their team.

Of course, that comes with having a workplace that also balances workloads. I am not foreign to the concept that we are also managing difficult workloads. 

Lauren Francis: Oh, for sure. No, that can be tricky. I get you’re right about the intentional part because everything has to be scheduled and coordinated and also delivered, meaning that setting up times and keeping those times and making them an important part of your process in your day.

I’ve seen this many times, and I know this is a very common observation, but people who are promoted into management because that’s like the next stage of growth within the organization or for their career, and then they get there and they find they don’t really like it very much or that they’re not good at it—it’s just not a good fit for them, right? It’s not something that they really thought about very much. And then what to do with that? Can you speak to that a little bit? 

Amy McGeachy: I can. So I would say that there are kind of two paths for somebody in that situation. Sometimes, we don’t really enjoy doing something because we don’t have the reps or the experience, or we haven’t built that muscle of doing something, like managing, very well.

We haven’t built the muscle, and we’re not very good at it because we haven’t done that. In that situation, I think people have two choices. One, they can learn how to be a better manager. And that is just about having that growth mindset and trying something, adjusting it, modifying it. Honestly, it’s continuous improvement. I don’t know a manager that’s doing a really great job who isn’t continuously studying this, especially because our workplaces have adjusted in the last couple of years. 

Other flip side of that is sometimes people are, exactly what you said, they’re an expert in the subject matter so they get promoted because they’re the most talented in a subject. They find that they don’t enjoy managing people. If you’re reflecting on how much time you’re spending managing your team?  If it’s very little and you don’t have that desire to invest more in that, it might be a good time to self reflect and realize that maybe management isn’t the right opportunity. 

I think people can take a different path and be individual contributors at a high level and manage processes but not people. But I’d recommend that anybody who’s actually really curious about being a better manager do so.

There are a lot of tools and resources, so I think if there’s curiosity about being a manager and wanting to do a better job, I think that’s enough to start grasping and implementing new ways of doing things. 

Lauren Francis: Also, so much has changed in the last few years. A lot has changed in the last 10, or 20 years, obviously, but with COVID, things have really changed. What have you noticed? It’s just been so rapid, and it’s come at us so quickly. What are your observations about that? 

Amy McGeachy: I do think, I think it’s completely possible to manage people via a remote work environment and via Zoom. But when there’s a chance to come together, face to face, take it. I have clients who are managing employees who are in a different city completely, but there are still opportunities to come together. Making sure that you, as a manager, are being intentional about that or that your company is being intentional about that is important. 

That could look like, a quarterly all-team meeting where everybody comes together. And if you’re managing somebody who is remote it’s a good chance to carve out half a day to spend with that individual. if you’re managing somebody who lives down the road or just the next town over, and most of your conversations happen via Zoom, meeting for coffee and that face-to-face time can be incredible and, really change and shift things from a management standpoint.

Lauren Francis: Yeah, no, that is that’s huge because I think the upcoming generation of workers are missing a lot there. How do you fix that?

Amy McGeachy: Yeah, there’s got to be a transfer of knowledge and it’s not happening quite in the same way. I will add one more thing because I can’t answer that question without getting this one piece.

We are also experiencing a lot more accommodations in the workplace. So, as managers, we are looking at either medical accommodations or just general workplace accommodations. That’s another part of what’s changed in our workplaces in the last couple of years—it’s just much, much more frequent, which is okay. We can adapt and, certainly make everybody feel included and be inclusive in the workplace. 

Kelsey Daly: Yeah, we have a question. How can a manager contribute more responsibility and grow their team from zero to one, while the directors are super busy with their priorities?

The manager who persistently brings relevant ideas for contributing meaningfully to the growth of his or her company and self-career growth, but it seems like the general theme in the corporate office is you need to wait.

Amy McGeachy: That’s a great question. If I understand the question correctly, I think having a track record of managing a team is important.

Sometimes, patience is necessary, but during that time, it’s not just about waiting. You are creating your track record, so you’re trying different things and adjusting your management until you feel like you’ve honed into the best way possible. And it sounds like in a situation like that, just being patient is important. I always encourage managers to influence their organization if they can. Because I work with midsize businesses, there usually is an opportunity for managers and directors to influence the organization. 

Lauren Francis: And do you think, too, that looking for mentors within the organization, that can help you with your growth and help you with that career pathing that they’re looking for?

Amy McGeachy: Yes, definitely. 

Lauren Francis: Yeah, because I think sometimes people think they need to leave a company in order to grow, and that often happens. That’s not a negative. It’s just that, in some cases, that can be the case. 

Amy McGeachy: Yeah, and that may not be true in every instance. So you’re right, looking for opportunities for mentoring.

I especially like when there are opportunities to mentor, not necessarily in the same, for lack of a better word, chain of command, but like training in a different department. And if you’re just wanting mentoring on managing, learning from somebody in a different kind of line of business or division might help get you a different dynamic of experience.

Lauren Francis: Yeah, for sure. Now, we’ve touched on this a little bit, but what specific skills can managers practice in order to be better managers? 

Amy McGeachy: Everybody who participates in my manager training series already knows what I’m going to say, but I think providing feedback is probably the most important. I was just reading some data that most of us want more feedback in the workplace. 

When I say feedback, it doesn’t necessarily mean negative feedback. It can be affirmative feedback, such as, “Hey, you’re doing this right. You’re doing this really well.” Or it could be constructive feedback, such as, “Here’s what could be going better.”

I think managers have a huge opportunity to be willing and brave enough to give more feedback. I also say this: If a manager is nervous about giving feedback, which happens, then get really good at providing that affirmative feedback and use that as a way to build reps and build the muscle of giving feedback. Then, start employing it to give constructive feedback.

That’s the first thing that I think managers need to do, and let me just also say that our goal is to grow people. The definition of feedback is actually really positive around growing and providing that growth opportunity. So, the goal in providing feedback is to round off some rough edges or put some pressure on somebody to maybe grow and develop a little bit more out of their comfort zone than they would be otherwise.

So, that’s the first step. Secondly, it’s being really proactive in thinking, and you said this, Lauren, but just thinking about how you’re managing your team. I think you kind of alluded to this. Are you having one one-on-ones? Do you have an all-team meeting? Getting really thoughtful and I would say caring for your team really well by having all of that planned out versus being really reactive and reacting to everything that’s coming at you.

I didn’t come up with this term, but somebody did, and I thought it was brilliant. It’s the difference between being an architect and a firefighter. So, you’re an architect, and you preplan everything. It’s very thoughtful and measured. And when you’re a firefighter, you literally are just managing what’s coming at you, which is pretty frantic.

Lauren Francis: And it’s frantic for your team. And it’s not seen as a priority. I’ve also heard this to start with the end in mind. What kind of leader do you want to be? You’ve experienced leaders, you’ve been in trainings, you’ve seen inspirational leaders, and they all sound so good. And saying, “Yes, I can be that.” And then, you know, in practice, you really need to stay connected to what kind of leader you want to be and what sort of principles and tasks you want to put into place to actually make that happen. 

I think sometimes we talk about good and bad managers like you were talking about. Which, I agree with you, I don’t like that term. But at the same time, I think we know what we don’t want. We know what we do like or do respond to as employees, but also having those leaders and those mentors help you stay connected to what it is you’re doing day to day because it’s easy to get lost in the day-to-day activities and all the different things that go on in the workplace.

Amy McGeachy: Yes, very much.

Kelsey Daly: We have another great question: We have a fully remote company with some young leaders who have been elevated to managerial roles as we’ve grown. Sometimes, their lack of experience shows up as a lack of empathy. How can we get them to be more curious and supportive of our team as people, not just as doers.

I

Amy McGeachy: I love the word curious. It comes from Ted Lasso, be curious and judgmental. At least, that’s where it comes from for me. I think that’s an original quote from Walt Whitman. But, I think that, gosh, how do you get them to be more empathetic? Certainly, pausing and listening. I think we have to carve out time so that we can prioritize people.

If we are maxed out on our productivity during the week, then we don’t have time to listen to an employee who is frustrated with their job, a coworker, a client, or someone who has an ADA request. First of all, I think it is carving out time, and I think that’s one-on-one.

I think having dedicated time makes team members feel valued. It’s an inclusive way to manage because if we’re giving the same time to everybody on our team, that’s one way to make sure that you’re being really inclusive. I don’t have a magic solution to being more empathetic, but just that: deep breaths, pausing, and carving out time for people.

Lauren Francis: Yeah. And leading by example, right? To help them along the way. But the remote pieces, like you touched on earlier, just make this so much more complicated. I think with COVID too, the workplace has changed so much, not just the virtual piece, but just what employees expect and what they want.

What we wanted 10 years ago or 20 years ago looks very different than it does now. Employees really want, at least I’m seeing this, that employees want very much to know where they fit in an organization, how this all works, and how can I be effective and also be of service in terms of my role.

Kelsey Daly: We have a couple more questions. Are there any particular conversational strategies that you have found effective when discussing the promotion of a high-performing individual who may be very talented technically but not as a manager? I have a difficult time helping senior leaders understand that just because someone is good at the technical aspects of their job, it does not mean that they will be good at planning, directing, leading, and monitoring other people. 

Amy McGeachy: Oh my gosh. Yes. I agree. I think the question was any kind of conversational tips, that is a whole different skill set. And I would look at, has this person been doing anything like that? So, for example, have they been indirectly managing, have they been leading a project, and indirectly managing a cross-functional team? That could be anything, but if they haven’t had those, I think I would want to point that out to senior leaders. Maybe they start really small, because you can be a manager and be managing one person and that’s a really great place to start. Then, certainly, manager training, reading some books, turning to some podcasts. But I think I would look at what the skill sets that we’re requiring or expecting of managers and how have we seen that demonstrated by this individual? 

The truth is that you want to reverse engineer that before somebody gets promoted and then ask that same question, say, six months before. Maybe they manage a cross-functional team for something in the workplace. And that could even be like the holiday party or employee appreciation or the summer barbecue. Just give them lots of chances to manage indirectly so you can evaluate and see how they would manage when they might get promoted, right? 

Kelsey Daly: We have another question. Any advice on what portion of your off-work time needs to be allocated to honing your managerial skills? One hour per day? More? Why? 

Amy McGeachy: Okay, so I’ll give an example. This is a great question, and it’s one I had actually too.

So, I have a client who does an employee engagement survey, and one of their leaders had just off-the-charts employee engagement scores. So I picked up the phone and called her and asked, “ What are you doing? I need to know. tell me all the things.” And, honestly, she said, “I’m spending a considerable amount of time managing my team.” She has a decent-sized team of not just individual contributors, but managers as well.

And her number was 50%. I think that’s a really high number. But again, she is managing more than one or two people. She’s managing a sizable team. And so the higher up you go in the larger organization you’re managing, you should be spending that much time managing people. From my experience when I do look at solid managers. They are investing a significant amount of time. And I know that’s a lot. Great question. Lauren, what would you add anything to that? 

Lauren Francis: I think you said it really well. My husband would always say, “I started my job at 5 o’clock.” Meaning that he spent all his time managing managers and people, and then he actually started his day job at 5 o’clock. That was challenging. For him, he needs to figure out his schedule so that he has more white space on his schedule and manage his day better, which he eventually learned was very helpful.

You have to balance everything because you’re not going to be a great leader and a great manager if you don’t feel like you have enough time. It’s always felt like an imposition as opposed to something that is really part of your job as a great manager. Our great people leaders really want the best from their people, and they want people to come to work every day feeling good and excited about the work that they do. It’s our job to do that; to create that environment.

Kelsey Daly: Great. We have just a follow-up question too. I heard two terms I want to know more about mentor versus sponsor at work. 

Lauren Francis: So a sponsor, maybe to clarify, would a sponsor be someone where you come into an organization and there’s an advocate or someone that kind of is your person? 

Amy McGeachy: Yeah, I think that makes sense. It depends on the mentor pieces, like they could be mentoring on a specific area, like mentoring on a technical skill. So then, they need to be technically aligned. They could be mentoring on management and I don’t believe you need to be technically aligned or in the same division to be mentoring on management. I think that can kind of flow across the board. 

Lauren Francis: I think it’s also really important to have mentors in your life anyway, whether mentors at work or mentors from other organizations. We can’t do it alone. We need people, and we need others to help us with those tough decisions and to talk through ideas. There’s a book that I’m reading called, Start, Stay or Leave, which is about decision-making. How do we make the best decisions in the moment? And sometimes we don’t make the best decisions. That has to do with the fact we don’t have our people that we can count, on who know us, and who can help us talk through a situation that we’re grappling with. Start, Stay, or Leave has to do with, do I start, let’s say, building my own business like you did, Amy. Or do I stay? Because I’ve got this opportunity to go work at this other organization. That’s going to involve a move or a whole new change. Then leave might be based on whatever the conditions are and maybe it is a good idea to leave. And how do I do that? And how do I do that successfully? So, we need to have our mentors and our communities of people that we can lean on and talk and speak with. 

Amy McGeachy: Yep. Oh, I totally agree inside the company or outside the company or both, just so that you can have a good perspective or have that person that you can pick up the phone and call and say, “Gosh, I’m experiencing this. What are your thoughts?” 

Lauren Francis: I think so too, answering a text too quickly, or answering communication too quickly when you really do need to sit back and think about it. How many times have we sent that message to go, “Oh, no, I could have sat on that for a day or whatever.” And it’s the same kind of thing.

Usually, the decisions that you’re making are to start, stay, or leave. These are big questions. And they impact more than ourselves, but our families as well. So we have to think about the whole. 

Kelsey Daly: The person who asked the original question came back and said, this is what they found on the web.

Mentors encourage you and can empathize with you, your situation, and your goals. Sponsors offer seniority, power, and influence to help you meet your goals. 

Amy McGeachy: Thanks. Ah, there we go. We learned something, too. Thank you. that’s helpful. Thank you so much. 

Lauren Francis: That’s great. Before we close today, is there anything that you could add or want to say just to managers? Sometimes I think we feel very alone as managers.

Amy McGeachy: Yeah, I think you’re right. As a manager, you need to build that network, and you can’t be silent about the things that you’re experiencing because that just breeds the kind of negative thoughts that you might be experiencing. I think that, again, there’s that scale of managers and like the scale, the sky’s the limit on how much you can grow and develop. I think you just have to take it one step at a time.

Whether that’s finding a mentor, attending a training, or listening to some podcasts to refuel yourself. You can’t be a good manager if your bucket’s empty, so making sure that you’re refueling yourself in a variety of ways is really good, too. 

Lauren Francis: Oh, I like that a lot. And getting inspiration from others.

You’re right about the podcast, books, and other ways to fill that bucket, for sure. Well, great. Gosh, Amy, thank you so much for coming on today. And I’m just so excited to know about your manager training series because I hear that it’s very, very beneficial and has helped so many improve their workplaces and help employees thrive, which is all that’s what we want, right? Always. 

Amy McGeachy: Definitely. Thank you so much for having me.